Council Two: Is Humanity Naturally Good? Or is the Natural Man Naturally Immoral?

9/26/2012

Welcome, welcome all. Now that you've enjoyed the lion fight with your togas in the coliseum of death, come and join our little republic Council discussing morality! We have here the classic debate, broken down more scientifically and theologically than behaviorally, of Hobbes Vs. Locke. Is man naturally good or are our tendencies immoral?
Following Shannon's example of giving a little background before we begin, I am a Catholic who is proud and respective of her roots and yet frustrated by and defiant of some Catholic teachings. Therefore, I herald Catholicism, like the Bible, as a good foundation for my own personal, love-centered, and humanistic religion to grow from but choose to be classified as an "LSV" -- Liberated Spiritual Voyager.
To provide some spicy contrast, Shannon is a Mormon, or member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. There could be a sitcom about our clashing beliefs on some matters, but on the whole, we've even more cherished agreements on life and God as well that I hope you will find as fascinating to read as it was to discuss.
I like the deeper conversations. Shannon knows it. So stay tuned and you may witness more epicly controversial, personal topics tackled by these two very different-thinking yet equally intelligent and good-looking philosophers.

Carry on.

And by the way...I've always been for Locke.

**This is primarily a response to my latest blog post, Measuring the East from the West, published on 9/23/2012
http://sheamegale.weebly.com/1/post/2012/09/measuring-the-east-to-the-west.html. In specifics, the paragraph we are scrutinizing is as follows:

"So how do you measure the east from the west? How do we measure humanity's faults with humanity's goodness? This is what the scripture is saying. You can't. Because they are not compatible. They do not coexist in the same realm. And while I do believe there is darkness in all of us -- a darkness that we almost need to understand how we feel about it in the world -- we are 100% meant for goodness. We are simply pieces of love, encased by the body. Humanity is a virtue that we ARE. Humanity doesn't have faults. Humanity has sin." **

Blue= Shannon
Green= Me

I disagree that we are 100 percent good though

Comment
about it
Actually don't.

Perhaps I should amend what I said

I do believe there is darkness in all of us.

Allow me to edit...
also made a typo in the third para...
*scurries to weebly*

"The natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man, and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child: submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love..."

Yeah, disagree with that.

I definitely disagree.
So totally comment

you disagree with me?

I have not fully explained myself, however

Shall we do this here of on Council or on
the blog post?

here.

Proceed.

The quote is only
one part of it. It tells of the carnal side of man...the imperfections we all have

So our instincts are wrong.
Disagree.

The "natural man"
being our own rather bullheaded tendency to do whatever we please regardless of what is right
SOME of our instincts are wrong

How can our instincts be wrong??? God
programmed us!

We are also children of God,
with the potential, indeed the purpose, of becoming like him
I totally agree with you that we are divine.

I have said it before and I'll say it again. Sometimes I do believe we are not meant to be perfect.

We are meant for unimaginable glory.

It isn't that we aren't meant to be perfect.
It's just that perfection is unattainable in this life.
So, I suppose it depends on your definition of humanity.

And yet I don't believe that we will be playing harps and giving
up curse words and being godly in the next life. We are human. It is an entirely
different divine. We are just as complex and incredible as the Creator because
we are pieces of him. But we are individual of Him too.

Humanity, as the great glob of people and everything we
do....definitely not 100% goodness.

You misunderstood my blog post

I'm giving you my take on it. Let me give the other definition as i see it

Just like separating the east from the west, I was separating
our humanity and its transgressions from true identity and sin.
Go on.

The other definition of humanity, the one that you are presumably using, IS our godly tendencies...our love, compassion, brotherly (sisterly) kindness

In short, our divinity as children of God. That
which sets us apart from other creatures.

So back to what you were saying of "natural man" being an "enemy
of God," which I find so inaccurate, what in particular are you referring to?

What is your definition of man's carnal offenses?

As to heaven..I agree and disagree. I don't think we'll be using curse words. I think we ARE meant to give up our imperfections. I think we are meant for higher things.
Giving up our imperfections doesn't mean giving up our unique
worth.

I just think some of those imperfections are part of who we are.
Imperfections and evils are two very different things.

The natural man being our selfish desires. The ungodlike tendencies that we are tempted into choosing.

Elucidate on these imperfections.

I don't mean that we'll be instantly
transformed into perfect beings when we die.
You seem to have a very poetic stance on this. Which is great.
But some of our imperfections are sin. Some are not. I'm not sure what you mean.

So what you mean is, sin is not who we are. It
is something we sometimes succumb to. Which i basically agree with.

And yet did God not program those desires
into us? We desire love, success, creativity, influence, respect, and yes, sex. And all of those are good things. It's just when we abuse them that it is wrong. Imperfections - our possssion of inner darkness, the ability to feel it and fear it, explore and yet fight it. Our sense of individualism from God while at the same time CHOOSING to love him and not giving up our own wills to obience to him. I also think our tangible abilities are a huge part of humanity. As I saidm the brush of a hand, squeeze of a stranger, physical passion with our romantic soul mates. I' don't believe that it all washes away when we die and I if course don't classify those as imperfections, I was just adding that point in reference to your "carnal man"
Yes on that last part.

I suppose it is poetic in a way. But the more I
look at it, the more humanity seems to be just that.

Yes and no. God gave us ourselves, our divine nature and
desires. He sent us to Earth at least in part for us to gain physical bodies.
But He also gave us agency--the freedom to choose for ourselves what we will do here. And don't forget that there is another who seeks to twist the good desires that God has given us for his own ends.

And that gift of God's is the one I am greatly in praise of Him
for -- free will.

Yes. But I refuse to believe that everything--anything--we do with that free will is right.

Of course not. But again, you must seperate imperfections from evils.

separate**

Carnal just means wicked, basically.
Wrong actions we take.

Carnal, in my English definition, means bodily.

Ok.
Sin is evil. To commit sin doesn't mean we're evil. Fortunately, we can repent
of it, pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and try again. to use our agency
for good.

Agreed.

I was using a more general definition. Although many of the
desires that Satan twists do have to do with our physical bodies.

Love turned to lust, for instance.

Which is what? What is lust exactly?

Because it cannot be just attraction.

So following what we were saying about
imperfections: that is why I don't like the question "Won't you accept me for
who I am?" No. I don't want to. I don't want you to accept me for who I am. I
want us both to become better. Because we both can be so much more than we are now. We are children of God.

Is it dehumanizing and degrading the person behind the body because you're ONLY interested in the body? Yes. THat is wrong. But attraction -- even intense
attraction -- is not.

Exactly. You said it better than I could.

Attraction as part of real love---godly love---is good.

We cal ALL improve. But you say that looking through one lens, when to someone else, looking through another lens, they ARE perfect as they are. To love someone deeply is to love their imperfections too.

Yes. Even intense attraction.

can**

"You don't love someone because they're
beautiful, they're beautiful because you love them."

Love them with their imperfections, perhaps. But don't love
whatever sin they are struggling with. We all struggle with many things.

Of course we do. We can all improve. But I
still often think we are not meant to be your definition of *perfect.*

I read something the other day..."Thank
heaven that love does not wait for beauty. Human love is like a flowing river,
bringing beauty with it."

Something like
that.

What is my definition of perfect?

I love that thought. But I don't get the river similie lol

I didn't make it up lol.

Nor did I state it exactly as the
author did.

Being exactly like God. Laying down some of the parts of us that make us human, like I was explaining when I was defining the difference between imperfection and evil.

You mean being clones.

You don't have to sin to be unique, is what I'm saying.

I never said sin makes you unique

(In fact, we'd be unique if we didn't sin, haha)

Clever :)

Does this conclude the Council?

Ah, yes. I remember, I was going to comment more on that. I believe that we are meant to give up our wills to Him. If he is the ultimate good, and we are meant to be like Him, can we be like Him if we cling to anything less than good?

Oh good
:) it's still on :)
Disagree.

Give up our wills?

No.

Well, everything we
want is not good. I want to eat cookies for lunch every day. If I give up that
particular wish in favor of God's will that i take care of myself, I'll be
happier.

That is why God gave us wills in the first place. To test us, yes, but He wants us to love him of our own choosing. It's live falling in love with a unique, incredible, individual being as opposed to slipping he or she love potion and making them.
like** not live

Bringing our wills into alignment with God's will make us
happier. He has a much broader perspective than us.
Yes.
God gave us wills to see if we would choose Him.
Choose to let him direct our lives.
In short, give up our short-term wants to His eternal plan for us.

We are on the same side, so our wills should certainly collaborate. But to give up to Him entirely is giving up the individual being, the free warriors of light
that we are.
We are meant to be free. God knew that when he breathed life into us, I believe.

We all have different personalities and preferences. Different looks. Different
gifts. Different thoughts. That's not going to change. But we can have better
actions, and if anything, improve our unique human value.
But things that you think make you free often imprison you more.

You are absolutely right on the first part,
and the second part is intriguing and I look forward to thinking about that
comment.

It's like someone asking, don't you feel restricted because you aren't allowed to drink alcohol? Well no. For a couple of reasons. First of all, I CHOOSE not to drink alcohol. And secondly, it leaves me a lot more free than someone who is an addict, who has lost their will almost entirely to their body's desire for it.

Much, I'm sure, as you are looking
forward to pondering my comment about not meaning to be perfect
:)
Well of course. But alcohol is truly evil to
us if it is abused.

Following God's will makes us free. Following Satan's will only chains us down.

Having free wills of our OWN is not *evil*

Okay, but following is different that GIVING UP TO.

Plus, if I feel like I am living right by God
in my heart, which I do, then I already am trying to and want to live by His
will. I am and I do.

God gave us agency so we would have free wills of our own. Quite the opposite of Lucifer's plan, in fact.

And Lucifer is gonna get creamed by God :) if not already has.

Good! But the issue is justifying sin by saying "God means for me to have my own free will."

You bring up a good point.
We know who's gonna win. Why are we still
deciding who's team we'll be on?!

I really think the huge conflicting factor here is my separating sin from imperfection.
:) Come on, my sharkish friend. You KNOW I NEVER condone sin. You and I just sometimes have different opinions on what is sin.

Yep.

Here's a question. Your parents are pretty successful, right? Do they want you to be any less successful?

No, but they want me to follow my heart and find the success that makes ME feel successful. Not to take over their business or whatnot.

The whole Bible issue.
Someday you and I are gonna go through that line by line.

LOL it'll never resolve x)

Yes. God created us as His unique sons
and daughters. Each wonderful, and each different. No two alike, like delicate
and amazing snowflakes. He wants us all to be as happy as He is.

And I love him with every inch of my being because of that.

Yes. We agree on what's most important. To quote some song lyrics, "God is great, and beer is good, and..." okay, never mind. But we do agree on the "God is great" part.

And we love Him. And from Him stems our love for the rest of humanity.

The painter and the painting.

I'm not sure your being can be measured in inches, Shea I don't think you'd fit on a yardstick.

Yes.

Ugh, you're right. We're talking milimeters.

Haha

Define "being"...okay,
never mind. It's' late. Save it for next Council?

YES!

Boom.

this one's gonna rock.

7 Comments

Stuart Bates link

6/23/2013 12:30:59 pm

I read this with an atheist's eye and these thoughts just popped into my mind. As Shea knows I do struggle with this subject but here are my observations/thoughts for what they are worth.

1. ‘The "natural man" being our own rather bullheaded tendency to do whatever we please regardless of what is right SOME of our instincts are wrong.’ Are you really saying here that each and every one of us does whatever we please? This surely is a generality that cannot be sustained.

2. “Giving up curse words”, “[T]he brush of a hand, squeeze of a stranger, physical passion with our romantic soul mates. I' don't believe that it all washes away when we die and I [o]f course don't classify those as imperfections.” Are you not saying that we retain our human characteristics such as speech, touch, physical passion in Heaven? What then really is the difference between Heaven and Earth (our Earth)? That we lose our imperfections and do not sin? Do we, in fact, become no longer unique individuals? That sounds like Utopia, but who wants to live there? Such an entity is an impossibility in the form you seem to be describing. How would one day, and here I am assuming that such a concept as a “day” would exist, be any different to the previous one if all were free from imperfections and sin, i.e. we were all in fact the same and not unique? For that state to exist we would have to have a complete memory loss such that each day was a blank sheet, otherwise constant knowing repetition would lead to boredom and perhaps madness or, indeed, a reversion to our earthly human state.

3. “Sin is evil. To commit sin doesn't mean we're evil. Fortunately, we can repent of it, pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and try again.” By definition, if sin is evil then to commit a sin does indeed mean that the perpetrator is evil. I see no way around that one. Can a murderer, a rapist or a torturer and the like be granted repentance much less forgiveness. And who supplies this “get out of jail card?” The victims? Perhaps in some cases but who for the murderer?

4. “(In fact, we'd be unique if we didn't sin, haha).” Clever yes, but uniqueness restricts that to one individual. We are all unique regardless of whether we sin or not.

5. “And Lucifer is gonna get creamed by God :) if not already has.” Take a snapshot of the world on any given day and ask if God has yet “creamed” Lucifer.

6. “You and I just sometimes have different opinions on what is sin.” If you two have different opinions on what sin is can there ever be a meaningful discussion or, indeed, a definition of that concept and its constituents?

Stuart

Shannon link

6/23/2013 05:33:10 pm

Hey Stuart,
Shea knows I was torn on actually posting this Council discussion, mainly because I'm afraid of having my comments misunderstood (perhaps due to my lack of clarity) and thus misrepresenting myself or my religion. So forgive me a bit of a preamble. Just to restate, I absolutely believe that human beings are children of God, but that it is only through Jesus Christ that we can attain perfection.
Moving on, I appreciate your input. Here are my thoughts.
1. No. We all have the TENDENCY to want to do whatever we...want to do...that sounded less redundant in my head. Other concerns, happily including morals, also affect our actions. My point here was merely that our own motives are not always "righteous".
2. I can only tell you here what I believe. Heaven is living with God again. Perhaps you don't believe in God, but picture this for a moment. Living forever with someone who loves you more than you can possibly imagine. Being there with your family and those you loved on Earth. Growing closer to and becoming like your Heavenly Father. It's hard to comprehend ("forever" blows my mind), yet I suspect that if we could we would be going absolutely out of our minds with anticipation. I also believe that yes, we will have physical bodies as we do now, but they will be free from disease and imperfection. I believe we will remain unique individuals. Though we need to rid ourselves of bad qualities and develop good ones, surely there is not one specific personality type that is the only "perfect" one.
3. I have a question for you. Suppose as a teenager, you take a pack of Skittles from the store without paying.
...Are you a thief? Yes, but is that all you are? At the tender age of 14, have you robbed yourself of the chance to ever make anything of your life, be anything else but a thief? Will you always be a thief?
Now apply this argument to your question. Does everyone do bad things sometimes? Yes, absolutely. Does that mean we are bad, always bad, defined by bad? Certainly there is some part of us that rebels against God's will. You could argue that we are partly evil or at least succumb to evil influences, but there is also plenty of good mixed in.
I love that you ask who supplies the "get out of jail free" card. An awesome question. Jesus Christ does. As God's only perfect, obedient child, he sacrificed himself and suffered for our sins so that we wouldn't have to. In a sense, he bought our debt. And he's willing to forgive it if we truly repent and truly follow him. Murderers too. What a mind-blowing gift! Again, that depth of love and forgiveness is difficult for us to comprehend. This gift is something you can't take my word for; you have to ask for yourself if you really want to know.
4. "We are all unique regardless of whether we sin or not." I completely agree! Perfection and uniqueness then, are not mutually exclusive. Something to think about on #2
5. God gave us another gift. Agency: the freedom to make our own choices. This gift would be meaningless if there was only one influence out there. Lucifer is out there, is drawing people away, is trying to take the world down with him. Because he knows he's going to lose. God is there if we seek him, and he will win in the end. In the meantime he allows us to make our own decisions, but I repeat, he is there if we turn to him. In speaking of God we speak of a perfect and all-powerful being. He will win; there is absolutely no doubt of that
6. Firstly, I am flattered that you consider Shea and I among the world's leading theologians. :) No offense friend, you bring up a good point. Sin is a term that needs defining. Shea and I are just a couple of buddies talkin' it over. In saying we have different opinions, I simply meant that some things that I consider sin, she doesn't. We have different opinions on drinking, marriage, and so on.
Thanks again for your thoughts. Remember that there are far better sources of information than me. The scriptures are one, prayer is another. I wish you all the best. (Thanks for this excuse to write a really long comment! :D )
Shannon

Stuart Bates link

6/23/2013 11:17:59 pm

Dear Shannon,

1. I was cognizant that the word TENDENCY was moot after I posted, but I did not want to take that up until after someone had responded. You are correct in saying that we all have the tendency, but the question is whether or not we shall exercise that tendency in a given situation. One may be asked to do something for a friend which is anathema to us, or at least something that we really do not wish to do. The question then becomes; does my not doing the thing asked more important to me than my doing it because it means more to the friend? What is here is an emotional decision rather than a logical or selfish one – in fact either way it will be a selfish decision because it is one that satisfies one but not, essentially, both. But it then becomes a matter of degree, i.e. who will suffer more. But I shan’t labour the point.
2. I cannot satisfactorily answer your response as I do not believe in God – and whose God might that be? Sorry, but there are just too many for my liking. Even my brother, a lay preacher, does not believe in a physical form with God after death, but then again, he cannot define what Heaven is. I would say that we need to rid ourselves of bad qualities during this life on Earth and I presume that that is what you are also saying.
3. I don’t think that equating stealing a pack of Skittles (sweets I think) to those vile actions that I mentioned qualifies as evil. But there is real evil and I do not think that it can be pardoned, and here is the obvious question which I had hoped not to have to ask, do Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and et al, deserve the right to a place in Heaven? You mention Jesus Christ but I shan’t go into those religions that do not conform as that should be reserved for a later discussion.
4. Shannon, by crikey we agree!
5. This is a fraught and very difficult one. And I hate to be so conventional in my answer. You are talking about one particular religion, or a group of like religions, but regardless “make our own decisions.” Decisions about what? And here comes the really conventional bit; if God is omnipotent then why the delay in overcoming the Evil One? To give us time to side with God? And just how long will this trial continue?
6. Yes, having read the discussion a couple of times I do consider Shea and you to be clear thinkers on the subject and was extremely reticent to enter the fray. Apart from the occasional discussion with my brother I have no contact with religion. Except! And you may not like this but I get regular visits from a member of the COTLDS but we just sit down and have a social chit-chat now that we have got over the proselytizing. No one will be converted.
Shannon, Sin is a very nebulous term and does, indeed, mean different things to different people. I guess that my point was directed at people who think that they know!
The discussion is a fascinating one and we are all going to lack clarity at times as well as “misrepresenting” but I am surely glad that I happened on it through Shea.
With my best regards,
Stuart

Stuart Bates link

6/23/2013 11:28:30 pm

With thanks to Shea, oh and my brother, and not to mention C.S. Lewis,

"Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for those desires exists. A baby feels hunger well, there is such a thing as food. A duckling wants to swim: well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire: well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world
can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. If none of my earthly pleasures satisfy it, that does not prove that the universe is a fraud. Probably earthly pleasures were never meant to satisfy it, but only to arouse it, to suggest the real thing. If that is so, I must take care, on the one hand, never to despise, or be unthankful for, these earthly blessings, and on the other, never to mistake them for the something else of which they are only a kind of copy, or echo, or mirage. I must keep alive in myself the desire for my true country, which I shall not find till after death; I must never let it get snowed under or turned aside;
I must make it the main object of life to press on to that other country and to help others to do the same."

Shannon link

6/24/2013 06:39:44 am

Many of these points, of course, boil down to differences in faith. Intellectual discussion is valuable, but in the case of religion I cannot separate it from my faith and beliefs, some of which are unique to my church. (I think it's cool that you sit down and chat about religion, by the way. We can learn a great deal about others from doing so; in fact, I'm taking a class on world religions soon for that precise reason). Mormons are Christian and share a great many core beliefs, the most important being Jesus Christ as our savior, with other Christian churches. In others we differ (mormon.org is a good resource if you care to learn more); of course you can't be expected to be an expert any more than I am acquainted with the finer tenets of atheism, if such exist. But forgive me for saying, you do not strike me as an atheist. At least not in the sense that you believe this life is all there is. I love that C.S.Lewis quote, and I agree...we were "made for another world."

Shea

6/24/2013 07:25:48 am

This is exciting conversation to finally have on the blog. Stuart, you gave both Shannon and myself a reason for literary and philosophical adrenaline once more! And I loved Shannon's remarks addressing your justified and unsurprisingly intellectual comments. You posed excellent questions.

Not much to add on my end; I let Shannon discuss the bulk of it. The only comment I can offer is in response to one you pinpointed directly at me. On your fifth topic, you said:

5. “And Lucifer is gonna get creamed by God :) if not already has.” Take a snapshot of the world on any given day and ask if God has yet “creamed” Lucifer.

Well my dear friend. As I have said before, there are indeed many reasons to despise humanity and the evil that takes place. It is a war between both good and evil. Speaking in Christian terms, Christ's dying to conquer death and sin would suggest God already "creaming" Satan because Satan no longer has any route to full domination of human wills and beings as he would like to have.

But I was accused (in the friendly manner of the word) by Shannon in this blog post of have a very poetic stance on humanity.And I do. So since you don't accept Christian theology, my humanist response will have to suffice.

Just like the media, on any given day, it depends on where you "snap" the picture. As a gifted photographer, I'm sure that metaphor relates to the beauty you capture in your lens every day. One need only take a snapshot of the beauty in our world instead: the random acts of kindness, the policeman tying brand new shoes onto a homeless man's feet, the firemen risking their lives to carry out a child, the hug from a stranger and...maybe even the smile of a young girl reading the message of a new friend alllllll the way across the world through a computer screen :).

There are losses and victories of good vs. evil every day, and each victory for good is an example of a triumph for God.

I try to snapshot the victories.

Stuart Bates link

6/24/2013 10:22:10 am

Dear Shea & Shannon,
I hate to say this but it appears that I am merely playing the Devil’s advocate. It struck me that here were two “protagonists” playing tennis but on the same side of the net. You both have faith and I can only envy that faith whilst not being able to agree with your beliefs.

I am confused by Shannon’s comment that “you do not strike me as being an atheist. At least not in the sense that you believe this life is all there is.” What did I say to lead you there, Shannon? As I said to Shea, I fervently wish that after life comes the Void (and I once visited there for a couple of days), but I added the rider that I could wish to see my dear dogs again in some place where they are but, alas, I am not. That presents me with a real conundrum and is the closest I can get to your beliefs.

“The author turned and left the room.” (Spike Milligan).

Warmest regards,

Stuart

The Council

Council Two: Is Humanity Naturally Good? Or is the Natural Man Naturally Immoral?

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